| Theme 1: NAFLD is highly prevalent |
| T1Q1 |
E1
|
But our type 2 population would have it in one third to fifty per cent of people I would suspect. |
| T1Q2 |
GP4
|
Yeah, how many do I see. That [NAFLD] would probably correlate with the number of obese people that I see, who are young. In their 30–40s, I would see a reasonable number. But most of mine, some of that is a function of my cohort, but most of mine are going to be older. |
| T1Q3 |
GP4
|
The reason we NAFLD score all of our diabetics is because the risk of, especially in the poorly controlled diabetics or very fat diabetics, the risk of having a fatty liver disease is so very high, it's almost universal. We thought we could justify then just NAFLD scoring everyone because probably most of them have it [NAFLD]. |
| T1Q4 |
GP7
|
We're starting to see more cases at uni[versity] in the international cohort, so probably in the last 5–6 years. … there was more, increased education about the diagnosis and we're seeing a lot of international students that are presenting who are gaining weight in the –−4 years that they're doing their studies. We're starting to pick up abnormal liver function tests. |
| Theme 2: Abnormal liver enzymes are the primary trigger to diagnose and/or investigate for NAFLD |
| T2Q1 |
E2
|
Probably abnormal transaminases, low platelets, low albumin. |
| T2Q2 |
GP1
|
If I’ve got someone who I think is at risk, whether they're overweight, diabetic, or hypertensive or (with) any risk factors, then I’d do a NAFLD score. And I’d just essentially base my diagnosis on the NAFLD score, as well as I’d do an ultrasound, usually. And usually, they'd correlate like if you see something on ultrasound you'd also see a NAFLD score that's slightly elevated. But not always. |
| T2Q3 |
GP1
|
If the NAFLD score is a low risk and the US is normal then I’d leave it at that and just continue to check in 12 months. If the NAFLD score is low risk then I might just re‐check it in 6 months and continue doing 6 monthly monitoring. If it doesn't correlate ‐ say it's a low NAFLD score but the ultrasound results suggest severe fatty liver, then I might refer. And if it's an elevated NAFLD score I’d refer for a FibroScan. |
| T2Q4 |
GP2
|
Elevated liver function tests, signs of NAFLD on their US, mostly, sometimes you don't see it on ultrasound though, and I’ve excluded viral hepatitis and excluded significant alcohol intake. |
| T2Q5 |
GP4
|
I would write a diagnosis of fatty liver disease if I saw steatosis on the ultrasound. |
| T2Q6 |
GP4
|
you can have normal LFTs and still have fatty liver. |
| T2Q7 |
GP4
|
I think if you see quite abnormal LFTs and you've excluded everything it might give you some concern that it's more severe. |
| T2Q8 |
GP3
|
But you can have normal LFTs and have cirrhosis and hepatocellular cancer. |
| T2Q9 |
GP2
|
The vast majority of the time the mildly elevated LFTs get ignored as, ‘Oh it's just a little bit of fatty liver’. And nobody thinks about which one, out of those mildly elevated liver function tests, is going to have cirrhosis or advanced fibrosis, and we need to worry about it a little bit more. |
| T2Q10 |
GP5
|
I would tend to [investigate] if someone has got consistently raised LFTs. Often I would send them for a fibrosis assessment ‐ so a FibroScan as I know you can do those in private places or the equivalent, just to get an idea of perhaps what their risk level is at the moment, and then deciding whether they need to be tied in with a specialist clinic for ongoing monitoring. |
| T2Q11 |
GP5
|
So I would just be saying if they've got, with our patients ‐ weight, persistent LFT derangement, certainly if their synthetic markers should be red‐flagged, you know the albumin levels or platelets, but it's not as common to see them. |
| T2Q12 |
GP5
|
Well, I suppose that if there were signs that they were developing progressive liver disease, cirrhosis. |
| T2Q13 |
E6
|
I’d say often they come with the diagnosis and I will have high suspicion and sometimes I’ll go on to do an ultrasound to confirm that and sometimes I don't. |
| T2Q14 |
E6
|
Really it would just be the LFTs would be my first flag. And then starting to be more than mildly elevated, I’d start to get more concerned. |
| T2Q15 |
GP8
|
I pay attention to the AST, ALT ratio, …[when] AST is greater than the ALT then I start to pay more attention. I tend to organise a FibroScan …. There's those calculators as well you can use, but I have to admit when I’m looking at someone's results if the general picture is not making me worried I might not systemically do that. If sort of all the platelets are normal and some others, I might not go through the rigmarole of doing that, maybe I should be. |
| T2Q16 |
GP8
|
Those other signs of problems; the albumin and the platelets and things like that. And sometimes I might use a calculator to justify that worry. And sometimes when you've done the ultrasound that might say there's significant steatohepatitis ‐ that might make me more concerned as well and think about getting an opinion. If there's actually clinical signs of liver failure that makes me worry. |
| T2Q17 |
GP9
|
I think the liver enzymes and then APRI score and ultrasound. So this basically we do, as a measure of their disease. … depends on the results of the APRI score ‐ then probably we think if we would refer them to a hepatologist for FibroScan
|
| T2Q18 |
GP9
|
Particularly whenever we see the LFTs are a bit elevated then the first question is “are you drinking alcohol”? Yeah, we do the alcohol drinking questionnaires. … in terms of metabolic syndrome, if it's not that suspicious, if the LFTs are elevated but not that much and it's the first time, then I tend to do another test in say 4–6 weeks time, just to see whether it is coming down or not. If they're still persisting that same way or increasing up then I go for further tests and things. |
| T2Q19 |
GP8
|
I would do a liver panel in anyone who's got persistently elevated LFTs, even if it's quite mild. |
|
Theme 3: There is a need for structured guidance
|
| T3Q1 |
E3
|
… certainly, from my perspective the helpful thing would be a tool that was readily available to non‐specialists that would actually guide us for risk. Because I think your clinic would be overwhelmed if you saw every type 2 diabetic, that's not practical. Um, and, what we need is ok –this is the at‐risk population, these are the ones we need to FibroScan. |
| T3Q2 |
E2
|
And I suppose then, giving us criteria above whatever score to refer to you so then you can manage them. |
| T3Q3 |
EAT
|
I think people would have a good uptake of a risk stratification tool because we do use them in lots of other areas. But it would help that patient and doctor interaction on the day, but then there needs to be something else on a practical level to get the ones you want to see and who needs to do that screening. |
| T3Q4 |
E3
|
That's the key thing, is having the protocols in place, the means to identify the at‐risk group. As you say we're in an enriched population in our clinics, they [GPs in the community] are going to be seeing all comers. So you have to twig, this person might have liver disease, therefore we go down that pathway. |
| T3Q5 |
GP3
|
So those patients you follow with NAFLD and you're worried they've got [advanced disease] and you're doing 6 monthly hepatocellular cancer screening ‐ Is that all you do, or do you keep doing FibroScanning as well? And how often do you do it? Because that's the bit I get really mixed up with.
I’ve read the NICE guidelines to try to understand it, but it was just ELF score and this score and that score and oh my God.
|
| T3Q6 |
GP3
|
I think what you really want is guidance, at least from my perspective, some guidance that you're actually doing the right thing. |
| T3Q7 |
GP4
|
These are the reasons to suspect, these are the diagnostic criteria, these are the tests you order at the beginning and this is the process. Then I can incorporate that into a stream that works with our chronic disease nurses because such a lot of this is lifestyle related and that's their role ‐ providing lifestyle education and coaching. Then we can … try to create something that's a bit more holistic for the individual patient. So if you're got NAFLD plus other [chronic diseases], cause they've always got comorbidities, then you have to construct a pathway that's suitable for that individual and our practice nurses, our chronic disease nurses are very good at that. But the problem at the moment is I don't have a structured sort of pathway for NAFLD that I can give to them and go “right, we're going to translate that into something that looks suitable for our practice and suitable for our people”, and that we can then incorporate into that “whole individual” management planning. |
| T3Q8 |
GP4
| .. we just need a way of identifying people at the highest risk. Cause there's a whole lot of people, even with indeterminate scores, who come back with low‐risk FibroScans. And even for doctors I think it's kinda like, what is the yield, you know. I do all this and what is the yield. If we had access to things like ELF testing … the advantage of ELF would be, that it could just be added [to other blood tests]
|
| T3Q9 |
GP5
|
I suppose a risk assessment saying what their score is and then maybe what their likelihood of progression is. |
| T3Q10 |
E5
|
Or at least have a pathway from there, for those that have a FibroScan above the threshold or whatever score you are using. |
| T3Q11 |
E5
|
Yeah, as simple as possible, preferably integrated into our best practices—just sink a few parameters in there
|
| T3Q12 |
GP8
|
… almost like a checklist would be a really safe thing to do. Because I feel like fatty liver is something where it's so common to have these mild liver function derangements on blood tests. And it's such an alluring label to stamp on someone's chart and not feel the need to do anything else about it.. I’ve seen people before who've had a fatty liver diagnosis on their chart and nothing else has happened. Not saying I’m perfect at doing these things. But, it is a very tempting thing and I think it would be reassuring even amongst different clinicians to sort of know, that other people have done the same thing as you would have, as well. Because it seems to be completely on the clinician's individual [choice]– what they reckon they should do about fatty liver –and we all use these different calculators and different types of workups. |
| T3Q13 |
GP8
|
Different levels of workup. And you tend to, when you're jumping between patients. It's also very hard to know what's been done before. They've just got fatty liver written on their chart. You've got no idea if that just means their ALT was up and someone wrote fatty liver on their chart because they're overweight or if they've done everything else. You have no idea. |
| T3Q14 |
GP7
|
The interesting thing I’ve found with the Asian students, they don't have elevated BMIs. But they are experiencing fatty liver at a low BMI. And we have this discussion all the time because you want to be careful with over‐screening, but every time one of them comes in I think “oh, maybe I should do an e/lfts.”
|
| Theme 4: Healthcare providers considered long‐term liver consequences a rare occurrence |
| T4Q1 |
E1
|
The HCC risk … again we can't necessarily refer every person here for an annual ultrasound. But we probably could get GPs to do it ‐ but to do that we need to know if they have fibrosis which we don't necessarily know because we don't necessarily have a FibroScan. |
| T4Q2 |
E3
|
What proportion of NAFLD is that very high‐risk group? I’ve been an endocrinologist for 25 years and I’ve had one patient that's had NAFLD HCC and died from it, in 25 years and there's been a lot of diabetics along the way. |
| T4Q3 |
E3
|
But how common is it? Well, I think it's really rare because that's been my experience. But I’m happy to be educated. |
| T4Q4 |
GP5
|
Well, chronic liver scarring is a problem so that is why I suppose we are doing these assessments like FibroScans to try and get an idea of where they are sitting; if they are likely to be patients that are going to be progressive. |
| Theme 5: There are significant challenges of discussing NAFLD with patients |
| T5Q1 |
EAT
|
Just that I think, armed with a risk stratification tool like you're talking about ‐ access to a scan ‐ I think that would change the shape of the conversation we would have with people about their liver disease. Because I take the point of <other doctor> we all try to improve their glycaemic control, their metabolic profile, but often it gets a bit lumped into one conversation. But if we're got something saying that this patient is at really high risk for having advanced fibrosis, the shape of that conversation might change and you might convert more of the stuff that goes into the ether of “go see your GP” and we put it in a letter and it never happens realistically. You might actually have more of a breakthrough. I’m always too optimistic but you actually might get someone that goes and makes an appointment. |
| T5Q2 |
GP1
|
… by the time they know about heart disease, they know about diabetes, they're happy to talk to you about that, that, that. And then you get to the liver and they're fading out—I see too many doctors, too many specialists. You don't often get anyone refusing a referral to a specialist except for the liver. |
| T5Q3 |
DE1
|
We always get resistance ‐ you know we are talking about weight and we have lots and lots of obviously morbidly obese patients that come through and when we start talking about weight loss strategies, all those sort of things, some of them you don't much further than they know that they have to eat better, lose weight, move more. But sometimes the discussion does not progress much better than talking about strategies and motiving and choosing which goals they want to choose to work on between appointments, those sorts of things. |
| T5Q4 |
E5
|
… there is that disease rejection thing I mean people reject the idea of having diabetes and that they have to change their lifestyle and they start getting scared when you say not only that, but your kidneys are bad, your heart is bad, your liver is not too good, your eyes are just about to start. You know by the time you've come out with that, there is this kind of push back from patients about—don't tell me anymore. |
| T5Q5 |
GP5
|
… practically the barrier often is not even just the education of GPs it is actually that ‐ is it accessible ‐ because people really resist. They don't like going to tests they don't benefit from, [if] you know there are no complications [of NAFLD]. |
| T5Q6 |
E6
|
Quite often also, patients don't know that they have that label. And they're not going to really worry about something that no one else has even told them they have first of all. But if your doctor's worried and doing things, then there's going to be a little bit more buy in … that it's something that needs addressing. |
| T5Q7 |
DE3
|
There's already so much information that we're already giving them just on their diabetes management—whether it's their insulin or lifestyle. To add something extra in there I think they'd just get overloaded and often with what we already do, there's that overload and you have to know when enough is enough and either bring them back for another review. But I guess what we tend to do is write it back into the GP letter—if we're writing one back. |
| T5Q8 |
DE3
|
Try and relate it to them, something tangible. Because if you just say fatty liver, they have no idea what you're talking about. Same as if you say you know—your triglycerides are up, they have no idea, you've got to break it down. So as an educator it's really time‐consuming. |